Education By Design
The Education by Design podcast explores the architecture of learning environments—how schools are designed, not just operated—how culture is disrupted to make way for innovation and reaching potential.
Your host, Phil Evans is a career educator and creative. His guests bring inspirational and practical ideas into classrooms, all over the world. Join him as he engages with innovators who untangle the complexity of educational systems to align with shared values, common practices, and a common language to create powerful, human-centered learning experiences.
For any formal schooling system to have an impact, the central focus must be on learning. Let's learn together.
Dive deeper on the EduByDesign Blog: https://edubydesign.com/blog
Education By Design
S1:E8 Markus Reneau on “Reimagining Potential: What If We Believed in Every Learner?”
When Markus Reneau asked his eighth-grade teacher if she thought he should apply for the one of the most rigorous educational programmes available to him, she looked him in the eye and said, “No.” Her reason? “It won’t be fun.” In a room full of Black and Hispanic students, the message was clear—academic challenge wasn’t for them.
But Markus had other plans.
In this episode of Education by Design, we follow Markus’s extraordinary journey from a marginalized school community in New Orleans to Yale University, Howard Law School, and Georgetown University. His path isn’t just one of academic success—it’s a story of clarity, conviction, and choosing to use opportunity in service of others.
Throughout our conversation, Markus reflects on how his high school education gave him more than just knowledge—it gave him a worldview shaped by critical thinking, cross-cultural understanding, and the moral imperative to give back. From his early experiences in classrooms with ESL peers, to studying African American Studies and education policy, to his current work advancing economic justice through law, Markus embodies what it means to lead with empathy and purpose.
This episode invites listeners to consider what happens when we limit student potential—consciously or not—and how much power educators hold in helping students see beyond the boundaries others place on them. It’s a challenge to every teacher, policymaker, and school leader: what might change if we chose to see our students not for where they are, but for who they could become?
Markus’s story is not one of exception—it’s one of design. A design that asks us to look again at the structures we take for granted and to ask, what are we really preparing our students for? And, can every student engage in ways that advance them on their own journey? Who are we to stand in their way?
In this Episode, I share excerpts from Markus' 2019 address to the IB Global Conference in New Orleans in 2019. You can watch his full address, here.
Follow the EduByDesign Blog to explore the podcast topics, further.
And please let Phil know what resonates with you, in the comments.
We've been refining the system for decades, but what if it's time to redesign it? Not from scratch, but from what we know works. You're listening to Education by Design. I'm your host, Phil Evans. In this episode, I'm speaking with Marcus Reno. His story challenges all of us to think differently about authenticity in the classroom and what's informing choices that students make as they come up through their schooling experience.
SPEAKER_01:I learned about strength and what it meant to persevere for my family before I ever faced an educational trial in school. My mother remained steadfast, determined to beat the challenge before her because she knew the statistics that were stacked against me. Being the son of a single mother raised in New Orleans, Louisiana, in a lower socioeconomic status.
SPEAKER_00:That was Marcus speaking at a global education conference in New Orleans in 2019, just after he'd graduated from Yale University. I remember that day vividly. I was standing at the back goes far beyond his circumstances. He wants to focus on what these opportunities have afforded him and how he can use those opportunities to make the world a better place.
SPEAKER_02:I graduated in 2019 and then I started a teaching fellowship at the Oakham School in England. I was hired as a Yale Fellow, it was called. So like every year the school would hire like a senior from Yale to come and like teach and be college counselor. The school, albeit like is in an area that's 90% white, but they were very, like they were aware of the fact that we're like, you know, we're a posh British school. But at the same time, we try to have our students like understand like that the real world is not like this. It was interesting being there. Because that was a completely different shift than anything I was used to. I know a lot of teachers, I can just tell, they didn't expect me to be who I am. Because when I heard, yeah, hello, they had one idea. And then it's like, here I come. And then I'm completely different than that. And then I remember when the housemaster introduced me to the boys in the house. He was like, yeah, Mr. Renaud is the smartest person I've ever met. And, like, the looks on, like, a lot of the kids' faces, they were just, like... Like, a lot of the boys, they had, like, we had, like, real talks where they, like, talked about how, like, oh, you know, the Black people I've interacted with have not been, like, professionals. And it's, like, you show me that, like, oh, you know, there's, like, different types of people all over.
SPEAKER_00:It's difficult for me to try and put myself in Marcus's shoes that everywhere he goes, he has to wait for people to realize how astute and how accomplished he is. That's just something that people like me don't face. Marcus is obviously regarded for his accomplishments in academics, but there's so much more to Marcus's intellectual curiosity. It's the way that he is patient with people who are different from himself.
SPEAKER_02:When I was an undergrad, I majored in African-American studies and also education policy. I did that because the advice that I got was going into law school, they just tell you to take things that you're interested in. Just for a long time in my life, I've been interested in black history. So that's why I chose African-American studies. But then I didn't realize that at Yale, it was so interdisciplinary. So I got like... soft skills of classes of like sociology, political science. I took economics classes, anthropology. So that kind of really made me understand that the connections even more than I did coming from high school. So that interest kind of brought me into wanting to do the law. Once I got to law school, I knew that I wanted to do civil rights law. And to me, Growing up in New Orleans, that meant education and criminal justice. That is civil rights. If you can't even read and you don't have freedom, then you can't vote.
SPEAKER_00:And your own human potential is limited and your ability to connect with other people and from different experiences too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. The people I met on the rugby team were vastly different than the people who were in African-American studies classes with me. But I saw the value in knowing both of them. Like, I remember, too, when I was on campus in, like, 2015 to 2019. And so I remember there were times where I'd come to practice, like, the day after going to, like, a protest. And I'd have my teammates who would, like, ask me questions. They're like, yo, what were y'all yelling about? Like, I didn't understand.
SPEAKER_03:And,
SPEAKER_02:you know, I'd break down the issue. And then they would be like, oh, I appreciate that you didn't, like, bite my head off because I asked the question. And then I was like, well, you know, I know deep down you're actually trying to understand. There's little stuff like that where it's like I was able to break down, I guess, like the barrier that some people saw because they were like, oh, you know, it's just like a rich white kid. You don't really care about the issue. And it's like, no, they do. It's like you just can't be like, oh, you know what it is. And a lot of people like I'm not going to sit here and educate you. If you're really trying to recruit people to help you, you're going to have to do a little teaching.
SPEAKER_00:What were some of the educational experiences that you had that informed this importance around seeing things from different people's perspectives and engaging with people who are different from yourself?
SPEAKER_02:I really enjoy TOK.
SPEAKER_00:Let me just quickly explain that. TOK stands for Theory of Knowledge. It's a diploma program course students take to encourage them to think critically about the nature of knowledge and the process of knowing.
SPEAKER_02:Those TOK topics came up when I took a class called Norms and Deviants.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:And under like sociology. And it was literally talking about like what is right or wrong is based on who is in power. And just like stuff like that kind of just being unafraid to like question my own, I guess, sensibilities and understanding that like being able to do that is how you can have like cross-cultural communication. I think high school was the first time I really had the opportunity to like bridge across cultures. Because in my school, like that charter was for international business. And we had this thing where our ESL, like English second language program was very strong because we had a lot of students who didn't speak English at all. And so that was always interesting to be in like science class and like your partner just doesn't speak English. And I was sitting there like, how is he even, how is he getting instruction? And somehow he was doing it because I remember like he would answer questions in broken English. And I was just like fascinated. And so I think like being at school like that, it kind of pushed you out of your comfort zone. For sure. Yeah, in high school was the first time I met like somebody from Russia, people from like different parts of Asia. Or like I first time I met somebody from Syria, who was I think she was actually like a refugee from the Syrian war. I was able to find commonality with people who were from vastly different experiences and plus two in the city of New Orleans itself because our students came from all around the city. And so that kind of preempted the way that I went through like college and the rest of my life was always remembering, you know, it's all right to just not, not be completely like somebody, but you can still find something in the middle. And so I think that's why I've been able to like go all the way to middle England and still feel comfortable. You know, I mean, we got this common thing. We all play rugby. It's like you're from a farming village in middle England and I'm from Woolens. But, you know, we can still share a beer together because
SPEAKER_03:we're
SPEAKER_02:all human beings.
SPEAKER_01:My extended essay topic ended up being the effects of educational inequity on the marginalized. From that research, I began my foray into the world of education policy. Like my brother Ricky before me, I received full-ride scholarships to college, and I chose to attend Yale University off the strength of their African-American studies department. Through my research into the history of American education, and more specifically, the associated inequities, I came to understand that in this country, race and class were both interconnected and often an indicator of someone's success in life.
SPEAKER_00:I remember how powerful it was to listen to how you'd taken your high school research into education inequality, into your joint undergraduate thesis. Would you be willing to share a little bit about the influences for the topic?
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting because my extended essay, I blew it up more and it became my thesis in undergrad. And I think my interest in it really just came from looking around. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I know in New Orleans at the time I went, I think it's still the same today, but it's changing a little bit. It was And what
SPEAKER_00:did you discover? What do you feel really could help us to understand how to ensure that there's greater holistic opportunity for all students?
SPEAKER_02:I think. Cause like if you, you can't conceptualize something and you can't think to it, to like attain or reach for it. And so I know like in my own life, I'm first generation college student, but my, both of my parents have like an associates or a certificate. So they had like the idea of school. They just didn't have like four year degree. Like they're like, I don't really know what that looks like. And then as a kid, I went to this enrichment program over the summer that was called Breakthrough. And I taught at it while I was in college as well. And what they do is they bring high school college students to teach middle schoolers the next year's material, like a little preview. And so in that program, that's when I first met Black students from my neighborhood who were in college. And they were telling me stories about being in college. And I was like, oh, it doesn't seem that bad. It seems like something I can do. And so from that little seed, that's when I started realizing, OK, maybe my mom isn't just talking out her mind when she's like, you're going to get a full ride to college because we can't afford it. You're smart enough to get it. And then I would just be like, I don't know what you're talking about. You're just saying words. But I think when I was able to graft onto that an image and see myself in that, that's really when I think I started to imagine. And I think a lot of students just don't have that.
SPEAKER_00:You're making a very important point. And before we go any further, I want to play one more clip from your conference speech that addresses this in a pretty confronting way for us as educators.
SPEAKER_01:You can imagine my confusion when I went to school and my eighth grade white English teacher I asked her, do you think I should apply to the IB? And she looked me dead in my eyes and said, Marcus, you're smart, but no. I remember at that time, the class was busy working on different end-of-the-year projects, so we were kind of in small groups, everybody going at their own pace. She stopped the entire class of 20-something low-income students black and Hispanic students, and she addressed us. And she said, don't apply for the IB. It won't be fun, and you'll miss out on all the fun in high school. You all like to have fun, right? You like to have friends and play sports and go to dances? Well then, I remember looking around the room, seeing looks on the faces of some of my classmates, Some were shocked, others horrified by what she said, and they decided then and there that the IB program was not for them.
SPEAKER_00:In education, we say every student can learn, but the way that adults sometimes limit students' potential in the way that you describe in your speech is horrifying.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think my brother has told me He can remember when there's, like, some kind of college day or something like that at their schools. They'd either come in, like, a Yale shirt or, like, a Howard Law shirt. Or, like, now they come in, like, a Georgetown thing. And then their teachers have been like, where are y'all getting these T-shirts, like, this gear from? My nephews, they rep, like, Ivy League schools or, like, competitive schools. Because, like, I've gone there. And so, like, I would buy them T-shirts and, like, gear. And their teachers, some of them just wouldn't believe. What do you mean, like, your uncle went to Yale? Like, what are you talking about? And then they would show them a picture with me at graduation. And the teachers, like, this little black kid actually knows what he's talking about. Yeah, they're like, oh, you're shaving for, like, LSU. Like, don't you like to play sports? Because, like, one of them, he does. He's, like, the middle one. And he was like, yeah, Yale has all of the sports. What are you talking about? Like... That LSU does. They have all the sports at Yale, too. Yeah, if you want to do that, you can do that. You get a four-year education for free, and you play ball, too. So I know, like, because they're my nephews, like, they told me. Like, I know one of them called me after it happened, and I remember just telling him. It was kind of like a two-for-one, like, uncle thing. I was like, well, you know you're always going to have haters in life. And then he started laughing. But then I got serious and I was like, but also on the other hand, you have to remember how you're seen. And then I talked to him a little bit about the double consciousness that Du Bois talked about back in the 1910s that black people have, where I was like, yes, we know in the family, we know that you're a good person, you love comedy, etc., And I was like, but people don't see you as that. You know, they just see you as just another black kid. And I was like, so having this in mind, you always have to, like, remember the response that that triggers. And I told him, basically, you have to decide whether or not you're going to lean into it or fight against it. And I was like, you know, I mean, somebody questions you, like, oh, why are you wearing that shirt? And I was like, you know, you say, like, you told him, you're like, yeah, because my uncle went here. And it's like, you know, I can be a legacy at this university. So, I mean, why would I not shoot for that? And it's kind of just like building them up, letting them know that, like, it's kind of impossible to stop people from doubting you. But what really matters is how you respond to the doubt. And so I think he, well, this happened to all three of them. But, like, whenever I had this conversation with them, they seemed to walk away from an understanding that, like, somebody else's perception of them It's not the reality of who they are, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:It absolutely makes sense, although it's devastating to hear you talk about it like that. I'm just grateful that you, that kind of uncle and that kind of role model to your nephews. You've talked about your stepbrother Ricky being a role model like that for you as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I know when I was about 11, or 12 when he was in junior and senior year of high school. And so I saw him in the droves of IB. And I just remember asking him, I was like, oh, what are you doing? And he would say some smart comment, like, oh, I'm trying to make a better life for myself. But I was like, what are you talking about? And then he would be like, oh, you know, if I do good in school, then I get college paid for, then that leads to success professionally. And so he kind of, like, at first it was just the same level of, okay, sure, that I would respond to my mom when she would talk about college. But, like, with him, I could see, like, the steps to take. And he would always tell me, like, he was like, yeah, you know, it's difficult. But it's really just, like, discipline. And I think he, like, broke it down to where it's, like, you just got to chip away. answer like obstacles instead of trying to jump over them all at once because i know now he's a uh he's a psychiatrist at like a yale hospital and it's very interesting because i remember he told me point blank when i was like about to matriculate to yale he was like i mean if they're letting you in i might as well apply to med school as well that's cheeky but he always encouraged me to like aim higher like it was very interesting i think because he like He knew his own limitations at that point. But then he was like, you know, you don't have that same fear because I'm kind of showing you how to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. So, you know, I'm thinking about a vision for the future. And what do you feel like we need to be focusing on in education today more than ever?
SPEAKER_02:I guess the goal should be to teach students to understand what tools they need. It's like you teach a student how to look for a tool. You've got to teach them how to critically think. And it's like, how do you do that? You have to challenge them. You have to challenge them to understand that like they they have like the ability it's like they just have to learn how to unlock it like I think about my nephews for example and like all of them individually have told me that like they've been inspired by like the way that every time they talk to me it's like they learn something without realizing they're learning and I think that's because I've been very intentional in how I interact with them where it's like, yeah, on the one hand, I could be your silly uncle, but at the same time, if you have questions, please ask me. Kind of understanding that curiosity has to be channeled. And I think a lot of schools, it's like they try to do too much what they try to make up for societal ills. And it's like if a kid has a messed up home life, it's like you telling them to be gritty is not going to get them to pay attention in class. Because they already got to show grit just to make it here on time. Like, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Especially like that five o'clock scenario, right? Now you're telling them to be gritty and they've been awake since five?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And so it's like, that's why I think one thing about the future of education, I really just think about curiosity being tapped into. As long as educators keep focusing on harnessing the creativity, then I think we'll see a lot of progress. And I think a lot of schools mess up when they only push like four-year degree programs because it's like not everybody wants to wait. Like some people, they're like, I can't believe you've been in school all your life. Like you haven't, because I'm still in school right now working on a master's. And they're like, bro, you've been in school for like 20-some years. Like it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree. I think that schools can do a really good job of helping students to find out what they are interested in and what they're good at. And, you know, that doesn't always necessarily mean going to a four-year college. What message do you have for teachers that are really committed to helping to shape education in a way that benefits every single student?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I think one message is to... remember as an educator kind of like you have something to offer I think because I know like I've seen it be that maybe because say like at Breakthrough the type of student who went to Breakthrough as a teacher usually went to Teach for America right after it was kind of like a pipeline and so I remember from my own experience with Teach for America teachers like they're not all created equally I can remember some teachers who were there on some like white savior complex. And it's like the students who don't need that resent that because it's like, I'm not looking for you to save me. I'm looking for you to like impart to me what you can offer. And so I always resonated with my teachers who like they understood just reality. They're like, yeah, you know, I'm from Midwest. I remember specifically actually my geography teacher was a white guy from I think Indiana. And I had like a very close relationship with him because he was just authentically himself. Like, and I remember all my classmates too. We all appreciated him because he like brought himself into the classroom and he didn't try to like change who he was to make us comfortable. He didn't ask us to do the same. So it was like just a, it was an atmosphere of like honesty. And so like that enabled us to like be vulnerable. to where it's like, I might not know the answer, but I can still shoot out a guess. Cause I know, it was Mr. Daisy. It was like, cause he's not, I remember Mr. Daisy's not gonna ridicule me for it. He's gonna like enrich my understanding of it. Like, cause when I think about it, it was like him and then another teacher I can't remember who was just like herself. And like, it was those teachers, like that, her name was Swerloff. She wrote one of my recommendation letters senior year for college because i remember like we butted heads because she was like the first teacher who was like you're not as smart as you think like because i think uh she graded one of my essays very harshly and i was at first i was like yeah who does she think she is but then i was like nah she's right like it made me a much better writer
SPEAKER_00:wow
SPEAKER_02:teachers who they were just unafraid to just be just to bring themselves into the classroom
SPEAKER_00:how important is that Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely. Because, like, as a student, you can tell, like, because as I, like, reflect on, like, say, what are my long-term goals for education in the country, I think, like, that's kind of what's missing. There's, like, a missing link between student and teacher, and a lot of it has to do with, like, the lack of authenticity. While it's like, of course, you've got to be professional as a teacher, and, like, the students also should, like, have decorum. Respect that. Yeah, it's like, it should be respectful. Like, respectfully being authentic to where it's like, and that too teaches us how to like, interact in society. Where it's like, you don't have to shrink away from who you are. You just have to understand you can't do too much. It's really similar to theories about free speech. Where it's like, your free speech ends when another harm begins. When another's harm begins, just that students are not looking to be saved. They're looking to be taught. And if you teach them, you can end up saving them if they even need that. Pedagogy at Howard Law was incredible because it definitely, it reminded me a lot of my African-American studies classes where we would learn, this is what the law is. And then you learn, this is how, is actually applied, like the way that it affects people. And then a third question would be like, well, what can change to make it better for our communities? Because I think, well, I know like Howard's mantra is to like create a social engineer. And they say how an attorney is either a social engineer or a parasite on society. And like the difference is the ability to utilize the Constitution to help their community and like the rights that come with that and privileges, et cetera. I know like as a student of like history, specifically black history, you understand that like things are very cyclical in history and like society's arc too. And I think that's why I think I was very fortunate to go to like Howard Law School because like Howard like led the charge in the previous civil rights movement. And so I think I got to see a lot of the original documents and plans when they were making different arguments about taking down Brown versus Board or desegregation cases and seeing the briefs that my past predecessors who were in my seats, the same seats as me, And when they were thinking about dealing with stuff they had to deal with in the 20th century, and it kind of just gave me, I don't even want to say hope, but just kind of solace to understand we've been here before and we know how to get past it. And it's like we kind of just got to keep doing what you're doing. So I think through and through, Howard, I just constantly remind that you're here for a reason. It's like you chose Howard Law for a reason. And it's like no matter what you do, you still got to understand that like you now have like a set of skills to help create a better reality for the people around you. In undergrad, it's more like, you know, I'm here trying to find myself. Whereas in law school, it's like I'm here to find myself in the law. I'm here to figure out how can I use these skills to better myself and my people.
SPEAKER_00:You've been listening to the Education by Design podcast. I've been your host, Phil Evans. If you like this episode, please hit subscribe or follow and join us for our next episode. And until next time, stay curious.
